Hi,
I was watching some show (can’t remember which one) and in one scene this statement came up. This is something that I’ve heard many times growing up with both sides of the argument.
What part does morality play in this? I’d like to hear from our forum hive mind what everyone thinks about this.
Everything? This is 100% a question of moral interpretation.
I will weigh in on the overall subject at a later point, heading to bed soon.
I believe that no it doesn’t, not from where I am standing. If I could go back to a certain point where it all started I would have chosen another path. But the problem with that is, it doesn’t matter what path you take at the time, it can be just a decoy path but you always end up where you are meant to be. Resistance is futile.
So even though I don’t believe the ends justifying the means, it will happen anyway, so actually I suppose the answer is yes and no.
Hindsight and reflection are wonderful things, they help you to see narritive, the patterns and the paths, that eventually all merge into one.
Not to me. Whatever end that would be is temporary, the course you took to get to that end is permanent.
I think that there often (always) are different ways to get to the same goal.
Our lack of brain capacity, spiritual awareness, thinking with the heart, sets limits to see the options.
So always chose the actions that makes the least harm.
If one can’t find any, reconsider.
The statement “The ends justify the means” calibrates at LoC 20 on the Scale of Consciousness (0-1000)
In other words, not only it is a FALSE statement/concept but it’s so false as to calibrate lower than being a Psychopath (LoC 55)
The world today should answer that question.
On my Atlantean Prism of Intercosmic Transcendence Scaling, it rates a quark out of a gobbledygooker. That is unfortunately slightly different than being a Psychopath which comes in at a firm red rooster level.
Anyone can invent a scale to match their beliefs. It does not particularly add constructively to reasoning over a question philosophically. Ironically, my Google-fu suggests Dr. Hawkins believes reasoning rates rather high on the consciousness scale.
Go figure.
@Starlight
Warning: digression and rambling
to answer Your question I would say: Justice
I feel its kinda other way around, there exists Means that have right causes that justify using them
does making a dinner justify using a knife?
I had something of ‘‘evil’’ inside me from when I can remember.
I remember that after several years of contemplating my inner ‘‘evil’’ I would cry out to The Creator
Source/Whatever and ask something along the lines of:
What the f**ck? Why was I created in a way that makes me prone to ‘‘evil’’ so much?
Why was I born with overwhelming compassion and sadism BOTH?
In the history of Humanity there was a both need and praise for ‘‘War-Like’’ individuals like me.
So monstrocities like me born into present day are in a kind of bad-luck
Now everyone want everywhere to be love and flowers and you know, rainbows and stuff
Why only rejecting one or the other part of myself will give me stability?
Why to be considered ‘‘good’’ I should deny my own nature?
Should a Wolf starve to death to avoid killing for its own survival?
‘‘Hur Dur you are not an animal you are human’’- thats bullshit, on what particular reason do people consider themselfs as better than animals? but thats another discusion
This question was in my head for like a year or more
Eventually, in the age of like 12 I wasy actually going to kill my self this compassion/sadism being one of the main reasons.
When i came to such an desperation I saw a ‘‘Vision’’ in my dream
Conclusion from said Vision was like this:
Creation is such a well-thought mechanism that everything is already exactly where it needs to be.
The free will is always a big factor. And Justice.
Even if I am not capable of unconditional love for all humans (Come one, Humanity is full of shit, its just some people are better at maaging their shit and some people are geninuely good, but I actually feel like honestly good people are minority)
I could choose to love animals unconditionally.
Also sadism could be put to a good use under very objective and carful use. How?
This exact moment there are people who torture and kill animals for ‘‘fun’’
This exact moment some people in mental assylums, orphanages, institutions, big cities who abuse and torture the helpless ‘‘just because’’ and all of them deserve to be treated in the same way
That way I act out of compassion to the victim, not out of sadism.
Yes it would be way better without wars, conflits etc, I both understand this intelectually and emotionally
But it also feels like being a sword who will never be used
There is nothing fun, or ‘‘cool’’ in being born a warrior, in a world without wars
Yes there are sports and other means of competition but those all seem fake
Like the MMA fighters or streetfights those both are not real war, not ‘‘life-death’’ war
They are like a wars for kids
Meanwhile there are people who deserve having sword used on them
Im not happy that they exist of course, but they kinda give me a purpose.
Coming back to address the question of ends justifying means…
I started to write here an affirmation of what I tend to hold, that the ends do not justify the means. On some instinctive level I find those that would compromise themselves to achieve a goal rather abhorrent. It seems like “cheating” in a way, and seems that the end, if reached by that method, is not legitimate. My stock intellectual answer would be that one ought to do things the right way… the way that most conforms with truth… and whatever result is left is the one that is legitimate. One might even say deserved.
I have also considered another argument that in reaching such an “illegitimate” end, which has come at the cost of “who one is”, that one no longer is. If you are so compromising… shifting… that you would do anything for the sake of your goal, then who or what are you?
However, as I prepared to write all of this, I found myself coming back to a different sort of observation and argument that had the resonance of truth to me from years ago. It is counter-intuitive, but when I have looked around it seems to me that reason follow action, and not the other way around. That is to say, we have an impulse, we choose to act on that impulse, and only afterward come up with a reason.
It ties into a sort of common place phrase I picked up when I was younger… identified with then and identify with now… “If you want something you will find a way… if you do not you will find an excuse.”
Likewise, I believe all of us, even the most detached and “spiritual” among us, have desires or goals, even if it is “I desire to have no desires.” (perhaps there is a truly desireless one among us, and perhaps that state exists, I waffle on those questions). However, the question itself “do the ends justify the means?” presumes that the questioner does have ends… does have desires or goals.
If someone truly wants that end, then I would imagine they will do whatever it takes to get it, as opposed to someone who will offer up excuses about not wishing to compromise or violate some moral standard.
It is perhaps relevant (and ironic) that I think it can be said that most anyone here (or asking the question in general) wants to be “good”. People ask philosophical questions to attempt to reach the good. If they did not care about the good, then they could easily live an unreflective life. And, I think it is almost as clear that one is willing to “compromise oneself”… change oneself… for the sake of the good. That is truth seeking is it not?
So where does it leave us? It seems that those hesitantly questioning in order to find “the good” are also those non-beings willing to compromise all self to reach the end of being good or conforming with truth.
The ends justify the means for those whom by and large deny that the ends justify the means, it would seem.
Ok, going to try a summation…
Life is about desires and choices, but choices are dependent on the strength of your desire. Whatever it is you want, whether that is something mundane or something supremely spiritual, or just raw power, you are going to shape your life to get it (if you truly want it). No saint, hero, athlete, etc ever stayed the same on their journey to their desire / goal / end. Even if you say it was just a development of their born nature (an evolution rather than a sharp divergence) it is still a change. And those changes came about because of decisions to change the means they were employing.
It depends 
Now my mind is all over the place but there are too many infants in this forum so ill behave 
But in a serious note, i think its too much of a broad statement therefore i disagree with it.
Starlight - “forum hive mind”???
There is no end…
I keep my own ethics in, the greatest good for the greatest amount of dynamics, people, etc.
Being the best you can be helps others
Sounds like past life stuff