I think it can be useful in some circumstances given the amount of misinformation/disinformation available nowadays. It can bring people to adopt a more critical perspective especially on some ideas that are seemingly harmless but are actually disguised discrimination or just scams (for instance this is the case for many New Age concepts). It can make people less vulnerable.
For me the obvious choice is to seek maximum understanding by taking into consideration everything we can, however positive or negative. Then use this information to think and act in the most beneficial way. But once this is done, I can’t see a reason to dwell on negative aspects either.
Sometimes the most you can understand will be negative. So be it. But it’s more of a case-by-case issue in my view.
I see what you’re saying about “optimistic cynicism”— as, accepting self interest as a driving force can be quite beneficial. It is the root of capitalism and part of why society has grown to the extent it has. As Ayn Rand would put it, self-interest fuels individual freedom and happiness and through this, we get innovation and progress.
However, while= self-interest can be beneficial, I think we should also take a look at the bigger picture. Humans are inherently social creatures, and our well-being is often intertwined with others. When individual pursuits are balanced with empathy and cooperation, it leads to a more harmonious society. Happier people around you, leads to more positive environment then leads to a more positive experience of reality overall. Easier said than done because we haven’t quite figured out how to do that in the modern world where everyones happiness/desires/beliefs contradicts eacother. Now that is a whole other discussion overall that would derail this convo.
But here’s the thing with ayn rand’s philosophy… It is that it ended up not working out the way she had prophesized at all. Humans aren’t happy under capitalism. People are miserable. People are more lonely and disconnected than ever and this is just not the way to live. People want community and some sort of connection to others. It is inherent in our DNA. So that’s the other part of self interest that comes with being human and that is that at the core level, we are interested in others as well.
So I think the key is finding a balance where self-interest doesn’t override our ability to connect, collaborate and lift up others. By integrating self-interest with altruism, it increases the likelihood of creating a society that values both individual freedom and collective well-being. How this is done, I don’t know. It seems idealistic but change always starts with idealism.
I think most cynicism can be explained away by environment. It is simply what they have evidence for.
But, they’re also self-aware. As a cynic, I see I’m no better than other people that are pieces of…I guess that leads to it settling in, and having low expectations for both yourself and others. And that is way more honest, than keeping ideals as expectations.
There is also an emotional component, besides evidence. Emotion is energy. Upholding ideals is very energy costly and feels completely dishonest. Low expectations on the other hand feel completely congruent and is practically energy cost free.
I think cynicism was the wrong comparison here as it’s less about outcome and more about motivation. Sounds like you were a pessimist with a dash of cynicism rather than just a cynic.
If I was a cynic, I could believe someone’s willing to help me out, I would just think they have a self-driven motivation to do so. Even if that self driven motivation is unknown to them or as benign as the dopamine hit of feeling like a good person.
The whole “not seeing possible positive outcomes” is just pessimism. Further, someone’s motivation doesn’t have to be destructive towards others to be self serving. Believing I have to lose for you to win is not cynicism.
Cynicism is the belief that pure altruism is impossible because our bodies and minds reward us and that dictates behavior. It’s the belief that pure altruism requires being altruistic in the face of pain or sacrifice with zero eventual pay off, and since that’s impossible (dopamine/seratonin/karma/the right thing), it can only exist in theory.
Anything outside of that scope is something else. The problem being that it blends so well with every other mindset and philosophy because of the niche it takes up that it’s become this over bloated concept - but the only real common thread in that boat is the doubt towards motivations.
To me a big component of both Cynicism and Optimism is self preservation.
Cynics, in my experience, have learned that hope and optimism are too emotionally costly, because when those two are squashed over and over again, it becomes too hard to keep rebuilding that hope and faith. So you tend to assume the worst (pessimism) or become a cynic and distrusting of everyone because, to lose trust, faith, hope - which take energy to build -, is too emotionally costly and depending on the personality of the person, they choose to preserve that energy and emotional whiplash, by anchoring to a negative outlook.
Optimists, might just be on the other side of the spectrum where, safety and comfort comes from the fact that there can be a silver lining to everything and that you can work thru everything. It fosters a sense of “this thing happening to me, maybe in the grand picture is for the best”, because again, it promotes a sense of comfort and safety. If you had to accept that bad things happening to you happen for no reason and you’re doomed to fail, that sense of injustice can be unbearable, so you choose to hold on to something positive. This way you conserve energy and protect yourself by not letting yourself be put down too much by things (stay afloat)
Now, both pushed to an extreme are unhealthy.
One will lead you down a road of resentment and negativity where you’ll miss the positives and the growth that come with that.
The other will lead you into never accepting that something’s just hurt and that you have to experience it even if for a while.
I think it depends on the transient focus.
Cynics view happines as transient, and believe that disappointment/hurt are sustained.
Optimists view sadness/hurt as transient and progress and resolution as sustained.
Remove both and when you’re in the moment or “enlightenment” and then I guess you’re a “Is-ist” where you accept what you experience for what it is, and not while either looking for something else OR rejecting what you get.
Ok, Ayn Rand was just an example, I don’t really care about her drivel.
so you agree with the idea that optimistic cynicism is potentially a thing.
We moved on to the bigger picture, social structures etc.
Isn’t it safe to say that it’s in people’s best interest to be social not only for evolutionary reasons but also because they get literally rewarded or punished by their brains as a consequence of this evolutionary interest ?
Our survival depends on pro-social behavior and we’ve been selected for that.
Isn’t it better for everyone to take every one’s interest into consideration as real purposeful people to maintain cohesion and deliver happiness ?
Isn’t a shared interest the basis of collaboration ?
Altruism is motivated by interest not just material. Guilt, shame, satisfaction and pride all hardwired to guide the specimens best interest without conscious reflection ?
Isn’t that the difference between sociopaths, psychopaths and normal people ? They don’t feel this emotional reward and interest through pro-social behavior ?
They are lacking the biological reward mechanism for pro-social behavior ?
Animals who don’t need the herd to survive don’t exhibit this kind of pro-social behavior. Is that a coincidence ?
If people banged their head and they got rewarded for being kinky a-holes and felt guilty when being nice. Do you think it wouldn’t change their behaviors completely ?
Conflict is just conflicting interests. Collaboration stems from shared interests. Unless there is a new way to frame it.
Unless people are ego-less by default, then they are motivated by self-interest. That’s what the ego is.
Beautifully said. I don’t think I’ve ever seen it so eloquently put. This alone answers the question I had this morning. It makes a lot of sense so thanks for sharing.
Cause yeah, optimism does take energy. It isn’t easy. And life will continually give you so many reasons to not be optimistic and it takes a lot of willpower to accept those things and still choose to think positively. It took a long time for me to reap the spiritual and mental benefits of being optimistic but once I shifted the pattern, I became more and more unphased with negativity overall. The work I put in got rewarded and contnues to be rewarded to this day.
So I do think it’s work putting in that energy. It creates a new pattern overtime that sustains you to work more towards your full potential. Which… is work of course and can be debilitating in certain environments. I don’t blame people for choosing to be cynical. The world gives you so many reasons to be that. And as you said, having low expectations can lead to less dissapointment.
How much emotional energy something consumes is directly proportional with how much in alignment this something is with deep seated subconscious beliefs.
Upholidng ideals is easy when your Subconscious Mind believes them as well as they are then part of you and are the biggest part of your whole identity setup.
But most humans grow up with negative and limiting beliefs in their Subconscious Mind, so upholding constructive ideals consumes energy, because you have to consciously work against your own Subconscious Mind all the time.
To answer this, I’m going to go into this quote here.
The thing is, I have directly experienced puree altruism throughout my life in too many cases. Actually… you guys are in the space of one of these people. Dream. He didn’t start sapienmed to make money. He did it to help people who couldn’t afford care. And guess what happened, he would get relentlessly judged, complained, and attacked in all kinds of ways. It was the most thankless job ever. It wasn’t rewarding lol. But… he kept doing it anyways.
Heck, I wasn’t make money doing this at all in the beginning either. I just wanted to help people and weirdly, it doesn’t feel rewarding. I don’t know why but I don’t get pleasure, validation, happiness out of any of this. I did it out of duty to my fellow man. (also still doing it to pay the bills lol)
I genuinely love humanity which makes me one of the craziest people you all know lmao. But I’ve unfortunately had to see the ‘other side’ all too often and if I were to not love humanity, I would essentially not be loving myself. But still, I feel crazy for being this way. Humanity is always finding different ways for me not to extend love to it all haha.
So yes, I actually agree with you @DR_MANHATTAN majority of our behavior derives from selfish interest. Most of us are still attuned to primitive patterns which result in this. But these patterns are still malleable. We don’t have to be confined to them and many people are growing to dissolve these patterns by the day. These patterns served a world where life and death was an everyday battle but nowadays, we have life figured out to an extent where we don’t have to struggle so hard to survive.
Life is literally handed to us. You can sit down in front of a computer all day and have sheleter and enough to eat for life. We don’t have tribes or animals outside on the hunt for us. We don’t need some of these patterns anymore. Confining ourselves to them, limits our ability to be malleable and consciously forge the kind of beingness that is healthier for us and the world around us.
These primitive patterns are not solid. They seem so because they were passed down from years of genetic conditioning but they can certainly be reprogrammed. The mind is clay. The point of cynicism vs optimisim is really embracing the concept of the mind being clay, and you molding it to generate a more enrichening experience of reality. I don’t think most people realize how malleable the mind is at molding reality. None of what you believe matters at all. Seriously. It can all go in one second and you can believe you’re a toad in the water and that would be reality to you.
And it just so happens that when you do dissolve these patterns, you tend to naturally gain a feeling of connection to everyone else. Duty to help others around you expand. And hey man, you are doing that with your fields so you’re already there. It’s just a matter of perspective on it.
And yes, we’re all selfish. But theoretically…
if we are all interconnected then serving ourselves while considering others (meaning, not serving ourselves while harming others) , is a matter of serving them as well. Our happiness, peace and prosperity has a positive effect on the collective.
The question is not whether we can adapt above it.
The question is, are people mostly motivated by self-interest. You agree. Ergo, cynicism is aligned with the current reality is a truthful viewpoint.
The rest is aspirational.
You mentioned that belief doesn’t matter but if you believe that people are motivated by self-interest and that it manifests then it matters to whom believes it
As I said, at the end of the day, it really is a matter of perspective. It’s a matter of choosing to focus on someones inner intention or their action. If someone gives money to a homeless person to feel good about themselves, you can see it in either way : he did something good or he only did that to feel good about himself. Both answers are correct.
Being an optimist is to acknowledge that yes he selfishly did it to feel good but still appreciate the fact that he did something good in the first place.
Being cynical is to acknowledge that he did something good, but this dude is just a selfish prick who did it to serve himself.
Both aren’t living in delusion. They are both living in reality. But one is experiencing life in a far more enrichening and positive way that leads to more expansion and growth. Cynicism tends to close you off and make life more dark than it has to be. Life is whatever you think it is. Never forget how mental this all is.
Not quite, because you appreciate what he did. You feel positive about the action. You choose to focus on the positive of the action. Cynics do not do that.
Absolutely. And I hear you on you and Dream and many others. I agree with Doc there about cynicism is likely only a valid topic if ego is involved.
However, even then, you don’t have to feel good about doing the right thing to believe doing the right thing is good - and if that aligned with who you are, who you want to be, or what you believe your calling is… it could be argued that cynicism still applies.
But again, it’s a very “blendable” belief that gets tainted with all sorts of connotations. So even if I don’t mean that in any negative way, you may still look towards a purely cynical reception of your altruism as something negative.
So even if serving the self serves the whole and vice versa - believing you’re driven to serve either due, in some part, to the self with NO other meaning, intent, or implantation attached is pure cynicism.
“Cynics” may not do that, but that is not cynicism.
Last I checked being unwilling to be vulnerable, being unwilling to be thankful, being unwilling to see positivity, isn’t cynicism - so its cause must be something else.
I can blame my anger issues on my father being a workaholic - that doesn’t make me a workaholic nor does it make my father an angry man.
Now you’re equating being cynical to being a jerk.
Sigh
You know it’s not true deep down I think.
If I say being optimistic is a kind of mental retardation that makes you naive and see only good intentions in people as they rob you… that would be just as caricatural.
It’s possible to embrace the fact that people are self-interested and that some interest can be shared and relationships can be beneficials.
That even though selfish, charity can be beneficial. Good actions remain good even though you accept that in different circumstance the one giving might behave differently.
This is the thing though. It’s that cynicism is painting selfishness as a negative thing when… why is it negative? You are you, I am me, others are who they are. We are in our bodies and live to serve ourselves first and foremost. So in essence, most of our actions will be inherently selfish.
Being cynical is to take this fact and just paint everyones actions in a negative way. To distrust people. And to dislike people in general. That just makes the experience of reality far more miserable than it has to be.
No I am not. I am equating cynicism to choosing to focus on the darker part of someones actions rather than the positive. Both the positive and the negative are true and in essence, all that we think, do, or say has a positive/negative. You can acknowledge both and choose to focus on one or the other. All I’ve been saying in this thread, is that I don’t see the value in choosing to primarily focus on the negative when it debilitates your experience of reality and restricts ones full potential.
It just is. It can be frustrating as we have emotions but being emotionally detached wouldn’t change the truth.
Just as you can be a naive optimist or a realistic optimist.
You can be a negative, reactive cynic and a more reasonable cynic that leverages that basic truth of human nature to achieve a more stable shared interested cooperations
