Effort/Discipline vs Surrender/Flow/Effortless Living

As lots of you have discovered already, spiritual practices fall into one of these 2 main categories.

The strange thing is, both paths are “recommended” even within the same teachings, which seems paradoxical.

Nevermind the paradoxes within the same sects, let’s just attempt to understand why sects have different belief systems revolving around these 2 opposing styles.

Some suggest extreme disciple, morality, and perseverance for spiritual growth/awareness. (eg: Patanjali’s 8-fold yoga, Buddhism’s Noble Eightfold, etc.)
Others suggest going with the flow, surrendering, non-doing, etc. (eg: Taoism)

Bhagavad Gita suggests both approaches, even compares them, and concludes devotional work to be superior.

Well, with all due respect, I’d still like to hear your opinions on this as well.

Care to share your thoughts, journeys, and experiences?

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I’m wondering what you’re reaching for here. Can’t there be more than One Way? After all, we don’t all eat the same way. We have a vast choice of way to build our bodies–some ways which appeal to some, other ways which appeal to others. Isn’t it natural that we would have multiple ways/styles to “build” our spirits and that those some of those ways might appeal (and, therefore, be more helpful) to some, where other ways might appeal to others?

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It really depends on the capacity of the practitioner.

In Tantra, we talk of Uttamadhikarin (highly qualified), Madhyamadhikarin (mid-level), and Adhamadhikarin (beginner). The path prescribed for each of these is different.

  • For the highly qualified, nothing is needed. An intense Shaktipata from a capable Guru, or other forms of pointing instructions (like we say in rDzogchen) are enough to propel the aspirant into the realms of enlightened consciousness. This is where one remains in a state of just Beingness and non-doing. Such aspirants are very rare. My grandfather’s brother traveled to India long time ago and met Ramana Maharshi, and a mere touch by the great man propelled him to a state of enlightened consciousness and thereafter, he was just blissful, without thoughts and did not really care about anything!
  • The mid-level aspirant has put in some work, but still needs more work to progress. These folks depend on techniques most suitable for them (In Tantra we call them Anava and Shakta upayas); Or where Gita prescribes Yogas such as Karma (work, meditation, yogic postures, service to the poor, etc.), Bhakti (devotion), and finally Jnana (Self-Inquiry, Non-doing, Pure awareness).
  • The last category needs more work. Here the krama (gradual or staged) approach is to be adopted where one starts with Karma and Bhakti and works way upwards.

Gita does not really state Devotion (Bhakti which also includes different forms of Sharanagati or surrender to the Divine) to be the Superior path - everything is relative. It is superior for someone who this path is suited for and not universally.

As an Advaitin (non-dualist), I prescribe to the school of the great non-dualist Shankaracharya who notes that Enlightenment is only possible through Jnana Yoga (Pure Awareness, Self-Knowledge, Non-doing) - and lower Yogas such as Karma and Bhakti can aid lower aspirants to reach this stage; but on their own, Karma and Bhakti, while preparatory and hence beneficial, cannot directly propel one to the state of Enlightenment.

So, it is for the aspirant (or usually a competent teacher) to assess the current state of spiritual development and adopt one or more of these paths. In Tantra, there is always a mixture of the three as this benefits 99% of the people (the 1% do not need anything other than Pure Awareness that comes naturally)…The New Age non-dualist movements (think Tolle, Adyashanti, etc.) - who teach non-doing or pure awareness for all without the necessary groundwork are essentially setting up people for failure and depression.

Below is the sequence we follow in Tantra:

  • Initially the aspirant is a pashu (a bound animal); instincts are basic, urges are primal, and most of the awareness is on stomach or sexual organ. For this level - strict discipline of body followed by mind, rules, practice, etc. are needed
  • Next the stage of Veera or Warrior - here, there are still rules, but a sense of devotion and connectedness with the Divine occurs; so the rules and activities followed are not out of fear or imposement, but self-driven and owing to feelings of love and service
  • Finally, the stage of the Divya or the ascended, where nothing needs to be done. One is already in a state of non-dual consciousness, so there is nothing to be done.

Important thing to note that stage 3 does not naturally occur for most, and we need to work through stages 1 and 2 to get to 3.

If one examines the practical schools of Daoism or Buddhism (especially Vajrayana or Tantric Buddhism schools like rDzogchen, Mahamudra, Sahajayana, etc.), the same gradual and staged approach is taught to most of the aspirants.

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@WellBeing I don’t make the rules/paths man. They’re defined by the repetitive walkers who climbed the mountain of spiritual awareness to reach liberation. I too shared your perspective at some point, but creating a new “unique” path seems to be harder than following what already lays ready, prepared with frequent signs and instructions to reach the destination.

That being said, surrendering to the present moment without any expectations & renouncing all fruititive actions is what comes as close as possible to the living a “unique” path, but even that is easier said than done. strange indeed.

@Maoshan_Wanderer Thanks man this is definitely a new perspective for me! Seeing them in sequence rather than 2 different paths.

Here’s a Gita verse which I got that idea from;

The renunciation of work and work in devotion are both good for liberation. But, of the two, work in devotional service is better than renunciation of works.

I guess our miscommunication was due to the assumed objective: Enlightenment vs Liberation.
Are they really one and the same?

Btw, you definitely gave me a different perspective on Jnana yoga too. I never really associated pure awareness with knowledge… Now thinking about it, they do mean pretty much the same thing. :)

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yo man, can u book me an appoiment with this guy? A touch u say. Lol

anyway, how on earth do u know so much about all these things? U said u live in the US was u born their? Because if u was then am even more curious on how u came about to finding out about all this?

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In the middle.

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Haha, interestingly, he passed on the same day I was born lol (I think he was 60 something), like an hour before … So sadly I have only heard about him from his surviving students but never met him lol

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Noooo!
Brit always haha

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I just live my life on a few principles: I like Easy, I follow whatever I find to be the easiest way, yet nowadays I think that doing things at their rightful time, stoping procrastination and actively building a better life (health, happiness/joy, wealth, etc.) Is THE Easiest (or the faster at least) Way, But it takes effort, so in the end there is no (too) easy way; I try to live blissfully, joyfully, to be in a higher state than sadness, depression, apathy, etc., plus having some Empathy, naturally I reach the third principle (I just write these things, in a month I might give a hopefully slightly different answer) - I try not to do bad stuff to other beings (there are some exceptions, like pests, unfortunately), at least I try to avoid doing harm…

Now, Back to Answering the Effort/Discipline vs Surrender/Flow question, I think that I mostly Go with the flow (at least in this moment), Yet the flow pushes me to a path of Discipline :sweat_smile:, it seems that things are interconnected, so I don’t think that much, mostly I just let things pass and focus on my enjoynment (being happy, relaxed and feeling good now), but I also need to become more disciplined, to continue my carefree life (invest now, reap the rewards later). :sweat_smile:. - - - For me, Spirituality is almost like a side-quest, I don’t think about it, Yet I am a little bit “on the path” (somehow).

Conclusion: I am definitely NOT qualified/Not the one to answer such questions, but I stopped by and decided to answer.

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I think the key is congruence. We are trying to get a certain result. From reality. So we are attempting to be or do in the way that matches reality bringing that result. Whatever the result may be, a certain state of mind or etc.

There are actions that match the result. And there are inner states that match it. And the actions can bring that inner state. The inner state can bring the actions. Either one can bring the results. Both together can bring it best.

Why would a master teach disciples to focus on one or the other? Many have probably experienced a failure to receive the desired results while focusing on the disciplines and others while focusing on the inner state.

If the state, then because they couldn’t conceptualize it well enough. If the discipline because their state didn’t match the discipline well enough.

But if they had success with the discipline, their state matched it, or it changed their state adequately. And then they advocated the discipline.

If the state, it naturally brought the discipline whether they noticed it or not. They held the correct message. They conveyed that message outward. That worked and they advocated that.

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Two or more, doesn’t matter, all of them should do with getting rid of your ego. If any spiritual pratice doesn’t allow that then it is better to stay away from such practice.

So, there are no paradoxes, nor confusing things, you do anything which over time helps to shed your ego, your identity with your body, that surely will lead you to your goal.

If any surrendering, effortless living are way more difficult than following other rigid practices. Buddha’s noble eightfold path became extremely complex Tibetan Buddhism more complex than quantum physics, shows human mind doesn’t like anything simple.

Eckhart Tolle is not new-age, his teaching is a tiny thing in the vast ocean of teachings of Jiddu Krishnamurti. He even quotes and refers to Ramana Maharshi who was a Jnana Yogi and a liberated soul.

All of their teachings are simple which ego doesn’t like at all.

I found a satisfying answer.

Since I’ve been using the 8-Arms Yoga field and also studying further, I think I figured out the answer.

Both Tapas (Discipline) and Ishvara Pranidhana (Surrender) are advocated by Patanjali.
Although they seem like the opposite paths, we can still practice/include both in our lives simultaneously.

The key is to have discipline, do our best at all times, but leave all results/outcomes to the divine.

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:100::mechanical_arm: