Sapien Medicine doesn‘t care about money?

By default, anything existing can be an object of desire. Even before capitalism, people desired boats or other fancy things. It’s nice to have things and it isn’t wrong to desire attaining them. I do think that chasing after things to impress others or desiring what you believe you can’t have will make you unhappy. But to want something because it appeals to you is part of being human in this world.

Corporations marketing their products and dreams to people in a way that makes them feel they need it to feel good about themselves does not negate that many people just want things that they want. I have sailed in a yacht before and it is pretty damn amazing. I’ve been in a sports car before and it really is quite an experience. I don’t want those things but I definitely see the appeal.

I think without self awareness, it’s possible that people get consumed by their desires. But to desire is part of being human. At the base of our existence, we desire food, safety, shelter and companionship. But beyond that, we also desire to learn, attain and create. It is part of how we express ourselves and for some, sailing the sea in a floating house (yacht) is how they’d love to enjoy themselves.

A major part of life is enjoying it. If working hard to get a yacht is how they wish to enjoy it, then that’s perfectly fine. By your standards, people shouldn’t want anything ever. That isn’t plausible and that would be very boring. Life is to enjoyed.

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maybe we are having different conceptions of desire.

i see desire as something that’s organized through mediations with our relationship with other people, like mom, dad, and then society.

i mean, before we desire we have an illusion of completeness with our primordial figure, until we are separated and this separation that creates a hole or gap in us that becomes articulated necessarely to other people’s interests, which starts to organize our desire through the mediation of others.

like, dad wanting the kid to play football because he cannot be the object of mom’s desire 24/7, and then advertising telling you what others desire to figure what to desire, to also be desired by you, or what to desire to be desired by others.

i don’t see that an authentic desire could exist at all. all forms of desire are organized and constructed through impotence and impotent forms.

i don’t think it’s necessarely bad, because we all do it, and maybe that’s why we are all “sick” or “mentally ill” to a certain extent, as psychoanalisis says (there’s no “normal” or “healthy” people).

but i do think that it is an obstacle to our primordial forms of expression and drive,

the more people are governed by desire, the less able they are to express their drives, have good and passionate sex (not based on super-ego ideals of how i should fuck or what position based on the book i’ve readed or the porn star that does it), and deep emotional bonds with other people, etc.

in this sense, i agree with you, the more unconscious you are by your desires, the more prone you become a puppet with no soul.

That’s a question for you to answer. What do you want to do? What would be fulfilling to you?

I would personally suggest not helping people because you think it’s the right thing to do. You help people because you want to. Helping people takes too much patience. It can be rather draining. It takes too much empathy for most to even handle. And it is a thankless job for a good amount of it. You can help people and some will still spit on you and disrespect you. It’s happened to me and dream more times than we can count. This isn’t for everyone.

But, beyond that it is rewarding and fulfilling to us. To see people grow is rather satisfying. There is a pleasure to seeing the seeds you planted in others, blossom.

I have become rather selfless over time so I don’t want much for myself. In being selfless, it becomes rather natural to give to the world. And well, I have for quite some time, felt my purpose here to serve humanity and give of me what I can to support it. I am okay with the hard task that is. But this isn’t for everyone.

And you still have some selfishness to you with the questions you are asking. About the pros and cons to helping when others can help anyways. If you are already thinking like that, then you already have your answer. I think you should pursue your egoic desires. Become the boss from your profile name lol.
Do what thou wilt is the whole of the law.

You are here to do you. If this is the path you want to most take, take it. If you purely want to help people, you wouldn’t have these doubts and be thinking more about yourself and the things you want to do for yourself. If you want to help people, helping them would also be for yourself. Maybe along the path, you end up getting over the chase and truly desire to help people.

But as it stands, you want to serve yourself and attain the things you want. This isn’t a bad thing. We are all here on different journeys. Don’t feel inclined to help people because it is the right thing to do or cause it might raise your vibration and elevate you out of this human game. Maybe you’re here to play the game. Play it. You have forever to do it.

Well, I guess now that I think of it, I don’t know if we really have forever as human beings with the way things have been going :sweat_smile: I can see why you’re asking it. But, you need to explore these feelings of yours my friend. I don’t think working on helping people is the right thing for you to do if you still harbor these feelings. And I don’t think basing your actions on the fear of what might happen is the right thing for anyone to do either.

There is a lot of confusion overall in these times. Many people don’t even know if they should pursue their dreams anymore because of AI. But in my eyes, it is always, ‘JOURNEY BEFORE DESTINATION.’ Pursue your dseire for the journey. You might not get to the yacht but you wll find out so much about yourself and grow tremendously along the way.

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But it doesn’t always happen this way. I have come to like many things because I like them. I was weird growing up because of that. I was definitely influenced by my peers but I was more influenced by what drew in my attention. And it was always very different from anything my parents or anyone around me showed me or liked. I’m sure many of you are the same.

That is the result of existing here. We are created by the world and then create it in tangent, with how we percieve it. Most people are programmed by subconscious desires and fears that were far from their personal control. That is why I do highly suggest people let go of all their beliefs, desires, fears all together so that they may be free of the chains that bind them. I do think for example, you still have some work to do in that part, as your perceptions of capitalism/socialism and certain ideas seem to be rather limited with your one sided biases.

When you do let go of everything, it doesn’t mean your fears, desires, beliefs dissapear. It just means they stop being the default of your actions and judgements of the world. It just means they become a map that you can percieve to view the world but that you can now view from the lens of ‘This is everything I’ve learned about the world up to this point and I will choose how to navigate the world from this point on.’ It opens up a lot of choices in the mind that weren’t even possible before. Some of those choices are ‘I believe I am capable enough to start an amazing business and own a yacht. I’m going to go for that all the way and persist until I get it. Every failure will be but a step forward.’

You don’t lose desire when you clear away everything. You just desire more purely without all the previous programming, desire to be accepted, limiting beliefs and all the hogwash in between, choosing your desires/fears for you.

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it may be that way. there are many exceptions of relationship with desire that do not fit structural notions like phobic, obsessive, hysteric, perverse or psychotic.

but those structures relate to desire in different ways, the one way i’ve mentioned it is usually a form adopted by obsessive structure (which is the most common among most people) a form of relationship in which the subject gets easily alienated under any form of authority, meanwhile there are other forms of structures that have different relationships to authority and therefore desire too.

i’m interested in pushing ideas to their limits until they break, which gives reasons to create new ideas and test them again, and so on. i don’t easily find comfort in answers unless they do honor to many of the problems and bring answers to what they’re hypothetically aiming to solve.

the best model to understand the basis of political or social problems is to find theories that encompass the most amount of problems at once, and find several answers too.

i do think that a perfect political and economic system it’s impossible, because of our limited reasoning and all of our indeterminations.

we would need several political & economical systems that change every second and functioning at the same time to find solutions to everyone’s problems, which is absolutely impossible.

meanwhile i think the best we can do is to critique what is not working until it gets fixed somehow.

because by focusing on the good and what works regarding politics & economics is what we already did during the industrial revolution and that positive thinking lead to the exploitation and degradation of many people, because everyone was focusing on the good and no one looked at the bad, while workers were getting their fingers cut off and getting fired for it.

negativity is a productive tool, i also think that it’s a productive tool for one’s life, if we are always focusing on our positive stuff, we wouldn’t see all the hidden negative stuff that’s lurking and stopping us from achieving our goals.

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@heidegger

Let’s take the example of a sports car, leftist usually love it as they see it as useless and obscene.
I’ll make it a post for dummy.

See, the appeal of luxury sports cars extends beyond the cars themselves. It actually taps into complex neurological processes and deep-seated evolutionary instincts.

There is the dopamine release which is associated with feelings of pleasure, satisfaction and reward. Signing the purchase papers for that brand new Lambo or Ferrari triggers a neurological response to this achievement and your brain releases dopamine into your reward pathways.

There’s also adrenaline. It’s associated with arousal and excitement. The mere thought of flooring the accelerator and feeling the car’s raw power can lead to an adrenaline surge. It’s a thrill.

There’s also the sensory experience. Luxury sports cars are designed as sensory experiences. The deep, resonating hum of a high-performance engine, like that in an Aston Martin DB11, send shivers down your spine.

Think about the senses. Sight. Sound. Touch. Taste. Smell. Each one of them has a direct line to your brain. Specific parts of the brain process different types of sensory information. For sight, it’s the occipital lobe. For sound, it’s the temporal lobe. For touch, it’s the parietal lobe. For taste and smell, it’s the insular cortex and the olfactory bulb. But beyond just recognizing the sensory input, the brain also connects these sensations with emotions, memories, and pleasure.

A significant player in this process is the limbic system, particularly the amygdala and the hippocampus. The amygdala plays a crucial role in emotional processing, while the hippocampus is tied to memory. When a sensory experience is particularly enjoyable (like the thrill of driving a sports car) these areas can link the sensation to positive emotions and memories.

And, of course, there’s the pleasure and reward system, where dopamine shines. When a sensory experience is pleasant, the brain can release dopamine in response. So, the roar of a high-performance engine isn’t just exciting to your ears; it can also trigger a release of dopamine, making you feel good.

The tactile sensation of your fingers tracing the stitching on the hand-crafted leather seats, the visual feast of the car’s aerodynamic curves, and even the unique scent of a new luxury car interior - each of these sensory stimuli activates specific regions in your brain, contributing to the overall joy and satisfaction derived from the car.

These cars are more than just vehicles; they’re status symbols. They indicate resources and success. In ancient times, those who could acquire valuable resources had a survival advantage. They were more likely to attract mates. In today’s context, a brand new Maserati serves a similar function, broadcasting success and high social status.

Risk-taking behavior is another factor. Driving a fast car entails some risk, but in our evolutionary past, boldness and risk-taking might have been seen as indicators of robust health and high genetic quality.

We can keep going and going.

I can use a sailing yacht as an example too if you want since that’s what you and Sammy talked about.

If I’m allowed to tease you: you should follow your own advices and read books. Real books, not just opinion pieces.

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do you think that a member of the Zulú tribe in africa that wasn’t brainwashed by western culture feels rewarded by getting into an sports car?

or he could feel surprise and anger and tries to destroy it because he has no previously constructed knowledge of what it is?

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I don’t know, a couple centuries ago, many african tribes feared mirrors because it could “steal their souls”, didn’t stop them from selling their brothers to the slave trade to get piles of them.

Who brainwashed the first guy though ?
Haven’t people in antiquity loved chariots race and their designs ?

Before that didn’t they love horse and compete to have the best horses ?

we’re all brainwashed, that’s the point.

biochemicals come after our brainwashed interaction with the world.

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Dude…

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some folks deep into fetishes get dopamine rushes from smelling farts.

nature is gone once we’re introduced to reality.

@heidegger
I give it a last shot for the night.

I don’t want to talk about people with 6 fingers, poop eaters or down syndrome (no offence to the last ones). Some people are crazy and have low quality genetics or trauma. Nature filters after the facts.

The desire for food, for instance, is linked to physical sensations of hunger which are driven by biological processes such as the release of the hormone ghrelin.

The desire for sleep correlates with the buildup of adenosine in our brains over the course of the day.

The sexual desires are mainly driven by a complex interplay of hormones including testosterone, estrogen, and progesterone.

These can be defective, it’s a medical condition and it reduces your chances of survival and success. Some people are less capable and have a lower standard of life.

The desire for calorically dense food, for example, has aided survival in environments where food was scarce. Similarly, the desire for sex is directly linked to reproduction and the continuation of the species.

Nature discard the most flawed specimen (which are real people and it does happen) and encourage the reproduction of the fittest. That’s why we always look on the long term, for consistency and success.

On top of that, Humans are inherently social and cultural beings, and our brains are wired to learn from our environments. Therefore, even desires that are shaped by learning and culture can be seen as a natural outcome of our biology.

Mirror neurones are a type of brain cell that respond equally when we perform an action and when we witness someone else perform the same action.
For example, when we see someone smiling or crying, our mirror neurons for smiling or crying fire up, too, creating an echo of the other person’s emotion in our own minds. This might help us understand and empathize with how others are feeling.

When it comes to desire, mirror neurons play a role in social learning and influence. Seeing someone else desire a particular object or outcome activates our mirror neurons, leading to a similar desire in ourselves. For instance, if we see someone enjoying a particular type of food, our mirror neurons might fire, leading us to also desire that food.

Mirror neurons helped our ancestors to learn new skills more quickly and efficiently, particularly by imitation. Seeing another individual perform a successful action (like using a tool to access food) and being able to replicate that action without trial and error has been a considerable advantage. The same mirroring mechanism that allows us to understand actions extends to understanding sounds and gestures, serving as a basis for mimicking and understanding speech.

When individuals within a group trust each other and share common goals, they are more likely to work together cooperatively. Cooperation can significantly increase the survival and reproductive success of individuals within the group. This might involve cooperative hunting, shared childcare, or collective defense against predators or rival groups.

Homogeneity, particularly in terms of shared languages or cultural practices, facilitates communication within the group. Efficient communication promotes cooperation, foster trust, and allow knowledge and skills to be shared more effectively, which can enhance survival and reproductive success.

Social conformity, which is the tendency to adopt the behaviors, attitudes, and opinions of others in a group, is a widespread phenomenon in human societies and other social animals. From an evolutionary perspective, conformity can have both benefits and costs, leading to some significant trade-offs.

Conformity facilitates learning, group cohesion, trust and reduces conflicts at the cost of individuality etc.

Conforming to social norms activates the reward system in our brain, including the ventromedial prefrontal cortex, which is involved in decision-making and reward-based learning, and the ventral striatum, a critical part of the brain’s reward system. When we conform to societal norms, these areas release dopamine, a neurotransmitter associated with pleasure and reward, reinforcing conforming behavior.

Going against social norms or being excluded from a group can lead to negative feelings and even physical pain. This is because the brain’s pain pathways, specifically the anterior cingulate cortex and the insula, which are activated by physical pain, are also activated by social rejection !!!

While social learning :point_right: :point_right: :point_right: which we are biologically programmed for !!! is a powerful tool that allows us to adapt to our environments and cultures, it doesn’t mean that we can learn just anything or in any way. There are constraints on social learning, and these constraints can result in limited variability.

The biological and physical capabilities of our bodies and brains put certain limits on social learning. For example, even though we can observe and learn from birds, our biological constraints prevent us from learning to fly naturally.

We have a limited cognitive capacity, which means we can only process and retain a certain amount of information at a time. Trying to learn a complex new skill from observing someone else can be challenging if it involves too many steps or too much information to remember all at once.

Social norms, cultural values, and societal structures are indeed limited in regards to what we are exposed to and able to learn.

Our ability to accurately imitate observed behavior is not perfect and can be influenced by various factors including age, cognitive abilities, and the complexity of the behavior.

For example, the absence of role models or a lack of resources can limit what can be learned.

By observing and imitating others, we can acquire new skills and knowledge without the need for risky or time-consuming trial-and-error learning. This is likely why our brains have evolved to be highly attuned to social information.

When it comes to choosing role models, we’re often influenced by a variety of factors:
Success and Status, Similarity (we copy people who are similar to us), Affiliation, our learning Goals

I’m fed up of writing…
All the mental gymnastic is tiring

For a more serious look at fetishistic disorders:
https://www.theravive.com/therapedia/fetishistic-disorder-dsm--5-302.81-(f65.0)

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You also forgot to answer this:

Man I’m putting too much efforts on this stuff
Lol

We’re going on my turf

Also, you didn’t read past the first paragraph :point_down:

Wait, you really didn’t read

The reward from achievement is universal.
People want better stuff, those have better performance, are harder to make and get not because of marketing, but because Ferraris are harder to make, have more tech and use more premium materials which play in the universal status and success desire.

Which is linked to the rest of the adrenaline and objective desirability.

I should have gone with a Zulu example, that’s my problem, I don’t think of the Zulu. Duh

The “what about the Zulu ?” argument, should have seen it coming.

You want another example. Ok

Goddam, but what about the Zulu ?
:rofl:

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That was actually very helpful, I will try to be more selfish in the future, as in the past, whenever I was more open to helping other people, I was one that got worse results because of it, people just dont appriciate it enough usually. Glad to see I wasnt the only one.

Yea I am a little selfish in my core, but I am also a good person overall, but since I got hurt almost every time when I was coming out of my comfort zone to help somebody, I am trying to be more selfish.

I do want to help other people, but not on my expense, unless it is for greater good, like preventing the destruction of the humanity.

Which in fact, was one of the reasons I asked the question, if the humanity is going to destroy itself, with wars, corrupt officials, pandemics, greed etc, and all of these systems are nothing more then reflection of the 8 billion minds, then I would consider instead of chasing what is best for my personal life, to do what is best for humanity, like having content that will change thousands or hundreds of thousands of people for the better.

But every reality exist, and everything is according to plan, than there is no other point in life then only caring how to make your life as amazing as it can be.

Sure, helping people does make me happy personally, but not if I am being disrespected for doing it, just look at what happened throughout history, even recently guys like Andrew Tate, Elon Musk and Donald Trump, they were destroyed via medias that are own by few. (I dont care what you guys think of them, they are just example of people that recently in my eyes try to do something good for humanity and good kind of destroyed for it.

But I do agree that during the progress, I might grow more and see new perspectives etc.

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Natural impulses become obsolete once the pleasure principle kicks in.

The kid starts to find pleasure by being feed, and that pleasure that starts to constitute his early personality is unrelated to physical biological needs. The same as the pleasure found in anal retention and excretion which constitutes a sadistic or masochistic personality.

And regarding to “what is real”, Roger Penrose is a platonic physicist that sadly didn’t read Lacan, but this explains pretty much what “real” is. Real is one of the most human things:

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Yes, the baby likes being fed I explained why and it’s biological. The oxytocin will also make it feel safe and give it pleasure creating an association between the biological pleasure of being fed, the biological pleasure of being with the mom (or whomever) and linked in the emotional and memory area.

Not the same pleasure, brut also a biological pleasure. Check the Ferrari examples I gave.

“Meeeh, because I said so !!!”

Ok, you and me played around, I put in some effort and time writing. You gave me what I think is world salad and nonsensical drivel.

I suspect that you just made a quick search and found that dude in the video. I’m assuming what he says is different than what you want him to and you hope we won’t notice. I might be wrong but come on… I already watched a couple of your factually in accurate videos or where the guy says something different than advertised.

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I really enjoy reading Your and @heidegger debates. I more often than not agree with Your point of view, but reading both of you, along with @SammyG and @JAAJ in this thread gives me food for thought.
You feeders! :smiley:

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You seem to find explanations that fit your worldview.

This is even simplier.

If you inject a male the same amount of testosterone and then do it with another male, their reactions will be totally different.

Because their subjectivities are structured differently from each other.

That is why using testosterone fields won’t give the same results for everyone. Because people’s reactions to these chemicals depend on their subjective relationship with themselves and the world around them.

Some folks may get extremely angry, others very confident, others will get horny, it’s all relative and sociobiology cannot predict these things.

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image

Nature is not the same for everyone, we have different heights, différents genes, different sensibilities. Drugs don’t affect people the same….

And still 99,99% of man in all societies will react the same to an healthy shot of testosterone all things being equal.

Go read the testosterone threads at least, at minimum.

Where do you find these examples ?

Please educate yourself

Increasing one’s testosterone triggers far ranging biological pathways. This increases a set of attributes all-together, once these attributes are increased you still experience different environnement which may also triggers some or other of the traits that have been increased (not created by the testosterone shot).

Testosterone doesn’t change based on personality, testosterone impacts a set of traits and then the stimuli varies.

Seriously, if you want to go with medical examples, read medical books.

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